socialization is important, but...
Jun. 10th, 2014 01:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kengrI've been working my way through an interesting person's tumblr (warning, she's got a *lot* of NSFW content) and I ran across this entry.
The comments about "forced socialization" are *so* true. Yet somehow most teachers, parents and other adults don't seem to even *consider* the possibility of any of this.
I expect a lot is due to this cultures overwhelming bias towards extroverts.
But it's also a symptom of the practice of adults not *listening* to kids. You can't just throw a kid in with a bunch of other kids and expect them to learn social skills by osmosis, much less make friends.
Yeah, it works often enough to be seen (via selection bias) as workable. The problem is that when it doesn't work, it usually goes pretty far into the negative. And then we blame the kid for not being able to get along or whatever. Hell, it's where a lot of bullying comes from.
Parents *really* need to stop and listen. And consider that while the kid may not be expressing himself well, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a point. He (or she) may well know quite well that things are going wrong (and how), but just lacks the vocabulary to discuss it.
Lack of success does *not* mean lack of effort. Often it's a case of clashing personality types. Or of ignorance.
I know that I had some difficulties fitting in in the first few grades because (due to being raised by a widow) I didn't know the rules to baseball, football, etc. Didn't help that mom's husband had been a lefty, so when she gave me his old baseball glove it didn't help.
We *really* could use someone sitting down and writing out all the stuff "normal" kids *do* pick up thru osmosis and writing it down (probably as a series of "age" appropriate books) for the kids (and adults) who *don't* figure it out.
Also need something to explain to the kids who don't "work" the way "normal" kids do (and their parents and teachers) that it's not *wrong* to be different. And suggest coping strategies that *aren't* "fake it".
The comments about "forced socialization" are *so* true. Yet somehow most teachers, parents and other adults don't seem to even *consider* the possibility of any of this.
I expect a lot is due to this cultures overwhelming bias towards extroverts.
But it's also a symptom of the practice of adults not *listening* to kids. You can't just throw a kid in with a bunch of other kids and expect them to learn social skills by osmosis, much less make friends.
Yeah, it works often enough to be seen (via selection bias) as workable. The problem is that when it doesn't work, it usually goes pretty far into the negative. And then we blame the kid for not being able to get along or whatever. Hell, it's where a lot of bullying comes from.
Parents *really* need to stop and listen. And consider that while the kid may not be expressing himself well, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a point. He (or she) may well know quite well that things are going wrong (and how), but just lacks the vocabulary to discuss it.
Lack of success does *not* mean lack of effort. Often it's a case of clashing personality types. Or of ignorance.
I know that I had some difficulties fitting in in the first few grades because (due to being raised by a widow) I didn't know the rules to baseball, football, etc. Didn't help that mom's husband had been a lefty, so when she gave me his old baseball glove it didn't help.
We *really* could use someone sitting down and writing out all the stuff "normal" kids *do* pick up thru osmosis and writing it down (probably as a series of "age" appropriate books) for the kids (and adults) who *don't* figure it out.
Also need something to explain to the kids who don't "work" the way "normal" kids do (and their parents and teachers) that it's not *wrong* to be different. And suggest coping strategies that *aren't* "fake it".
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no subject
Date: 2014-06-10 08:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-11 06:40 am (UTC)Fact is, education is one of many things that are badly broken and are going to have to be fixed. And "one size fits all" is only *easier*. It's quite clear that it is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Also, there are more and more studies showing that the system has gotten worse since you (to say nothing of *me*) went through it. Insane stress levels and it's *common* for stuff like homework to be way out of line (teachers not bothering to co-ordinate and acting like their class is the only one that matters. Read a lovely bit of one getting called on it (basically between their class and the others the "expected time" on homework amounted to more time than was *available*, at least if the kids were going to eat sleep and travel back and forth to school)
Of course, work has gotten that way in a lot of places.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-11 03:02 pm (UTC)Plus, the socialization stuff... a lot of it does come down to individuals. My own experience was that the best way to stop bullies from bothering you was to pop them one in the nose. Ignoring them or trying to understand them or whatever didn't work.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-11 08:00 pm (UTC)Also, consider the way the "rules" work now "zero tolerance" (aka "zero judgement, zero responsibility by admin") policies mean that if you get spotted popping the bully *you* get in trouble.
Heck, I caught the early stage of that in the late 60s. I got nailed in the face (while walking home with a friend) by a tear gas pen one jerk had.
I went *back* to school (with my friend trying to talk me out of it the whole way) and reported the jerk. Even with my friend giving an account that agreed with mine, *I* got suspended (so did the jerk, and possibly for longer, but...)
Knowing what I know now, I'd have called the police and filed an assault report.
Oh yeah, when I was younger, my mom was a firm believer in "it takes two to make a fight" and as such the very concept of it being *necessary* to defend oneself sometimes was completely alien.
I knew she was wrong but couldn't figure out how to phrase the objection (and even if I had figured it out, there was a risk in arguing against things she felt so strongly. especially if you might prove she was wrong.
Many years later I came across the succint reply that I wish I'd thought of.
"It may take two to fight, but it only takes one to beat you up"
Teachers (many at least) share these sorts of stupid views. Bullying is "boys will be boys". Attempts to defend oneself are punishable. And daring to complain to the teachers is not only going to get you looked down on by the teachers, but get you ostracized or worse.
BTW, that was the argument my friend used against reporting the jerk. My reply was along the lines of "Gee, they'll stay away from me? Good!"
no subject
Date: 2014-06-11 10:30 pm (UTC)But I was also told that if I just ignored them they'd leave me alone. Biggest lie my parents ever told me. Send me back into even my weak old body with what I know now, I'd give the biggest one a kick in the nuts and bash him over the head with my bookbag until he cried uncle.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-12 06:22 am (UTC)Indeed. The confidence of competence, life experience, knowing I've faced down (and chased) bigger, meaner things. Being able to laugh at my own foibles and mistakes. The feeling that I'm the one that owns my life.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-12 08:30 pm (UTC)Just as well, given the incident where I wound up chasing a couple of bullies with an *axe*.
Parents and teachers (hell, most adults) seem unable to remember the *reality* of their childhoods.
Heinlein dealt with something similar in Citizen of the Galaxy...
Same idea.
"Ignoring" a bully doesn't work on many levels. For one, they'll keep escalating until you *can't* ignore them. And yes, contrary to the protestations of many a parent or teacher, such a point *does* exist.
Even if it didn't, why should anyone have to put up with constant harassment. Oh right, you have to because "boys will be boys" and it'd be far too much trouble for the adult to provide enough supervision to make it more trouble than it's worth for the bully.
"Boys will be boys" and "boys are like that" are phrases the uttering of which as an excuse should be a punishable offense.
Another favorite of bullies is "keep away". Which is simple theft. The fact that they will (probably) return the item at some point doesn't change that.
I high school I was using this battered "briefcase" (the sort that opens at the top, not the miniature suitcase sort) to haul my books around. It should have been replaced, but it'd been a gift and I frankly hadn't a clue about where to get one.
At some point it became a "game" to take it an hide it in the PE locker room. The coach was of the "quit making an issue of it and they'll quit" sort. Along with a strong implication that I shouldn't be using it.
I should have insisted that he hold the other students and call the police. Instead I had to put up with it.
Then came the day that (because I had PE last period that year) I forgot about it (because when I got out of the showers and got dressed it wasn't there to remind me.
So I went and got on the bus and was 2 blocks away before I realized I didn't have it. Got off bus and went back to school. Not trace. And it was the last week of school. So I never saw it again. At least they returned the library books that'd been in it.
But I lost several bits of reference material I never did replaces, as well as a (cheap) slide rule and a few other things.
If "keep away" wasn't tolerated in grade school, this "more advanced" version wouldn't have been then.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-11 03:22 am (UTC)Also, there were infants and toddlers at the day care center, and I have always detested infants and toddlers. They’re noisy, far beyond simple annoyance, and all they do is eat and shit and get into trouble. Being autistic, I have always had issues with noise, both literal and psychic, giving me migraines and other problems, and small children put out a lot of both kinds of noise. If I ever have a kid, I am going to adopt one that is past that stage of development, because I cannot cope with that bullshit.
When I say the forced socialization didn’t work, I mean that at the day care center, I continued to pay no attention to other kids. I avoided them, playing by myself. I communicated with them only when necessity demanded it. I did not want to be there, and I’m certain that the fact I didn’t want to be there was obvious to everyone. Part of it is being autistic, and part of it is the psychic and literal noise issue; everyone puts out psychic noise, but kids especially. For me, being forced to stay at the day care center was like someone with sensitive ears being forced to spend the whole day on an airport runway, with the jets constantly taking off and landing.
Well...
Date: 2014-06-11 09:30 am (UTC)Forcing people to do things they don't want to do and/or do badly is not going to make them love it or do it better. It makes them resent you and whatever you're shoving at them. Then if you ever lose your ability to force them -- say, when they grow up -- there is a large chance that they will promptly tell you to fuck off, and quit doing whatever you forced them to do. Perhaps completely. Perhaps permanently.
Cases in point: look at how many students learn to hate reading, hate math, hate physical education; and then come out of school soundly resolving not to do those awful things anymore. And they don't. And look where that gets us.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-11 04:15 pm (UTC)Hm, didn't realize how much anger I still have about him. Thankfully, I could later choose to not socialize with that arrogant sh!t.
Forced socialization is much like tying the tails of two cats together. Impractical, immoral, and someone is going to be scarred for life.
Best is to allow opportunities for socialization, but don't force it, and allow a simultaneous opportunity to have alone-time if things aren't going well.
While introverts and non-neurotypical folks do have to learn to communicate effectively with others, there are better ways to acquire those skills than throwing them in the deep end.